This is a transcript of another public conversation I had with a Muslim who tried to spread his religious beliefs. It is similar to the conversation with an Orthodox Christian
and shows how spiritual blinding is not limited to the church. It is a curse coming from accepting many kinds of lies and false teaching that can affect anyone, whether a believer, atheist, or person of any other faith.
This conversation shows better ways to handle debates with Muslims about their faith. I've seen other Christians simply give piles of scripture without adequate explanations to rebuke Muslims, but as we will see, even giving plain facts and just enough scripture does not make a spiritually blinded person see the truth. So like with the Orthodox Christian, this person had to be cut off from making further comments, which were on a YouTube page about Ron Wyatt's Red Sea Crossing
(Started on March 10, 2020 and ended on April 20, 2020. The person’s name was changed to “Commenter” in the conversation. Only edits of line, word spacing and styling, and the spelling of the name of Muhammad were made to the original conversation. Some notes were added in [square brackets] and serif-typeface.)
Commenter: For an accurate account of the story of Moses, refer to the Quran for details, not the Bible which has been corrupted.
Ty: Unfortunately, your Quran and Islam do not accurately give history or spiritual teaching from God. Islam was founded around the 5th or 6th Centuries AD, long after the Old and New Testaments were written.
The founder of Islam, Muhammad, was guided by a spirit claiming to be the Archangel Gabriel. However, because your religion does not acknowledge Christ coming in the flesh or as Savior equal to God, it does not pass the test Apostle John gave us in the New Testament, “Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world” (1 John 4:1-3).
Muhammad was misled by an imposter of Gabriel and so the Quran has much misinformation and false teaching in it. For example, you are taught the chosen child of Abraham was Ishmael instead of Isaac. I am no expert of the Quran or Islam, but I have spent over a decade going through spiritual guidance and teachings of all kinds. God predestined me to that path to have discernment and teach people correctly about the truth, so may you not take offense to what I say about your beliefs.
Your religion is not the only one plagued with false teaching or “corruption” as you put it. Christianity has its own problems, but its documents far predate Islam and have been verified by many scholars to be very consistent over time. God has given me much guidance on the validity and truth shown in the Bible. If you’d like to learn more, go to 3rdCompassDOTorg. You may also speak with me directly through the website if you have further questions. The Lord bless you in the truth and have you come out of false teachings, through Christ Jesus. Amen.
Commenter: Let me correct your misconception.
Islam is the seal of the three Abrahamic faith.
Why the seal? Its because the original teachings of Moses and Jesus (both are prophets of Islam) have been altered/corrupted, hence our God sent Muhammad with the final and perfected religion for ALL mankind, unlike Moses and Jesus who were sent only for the Children of Israel.
Muhammad is not the founder of islam. Islam as a "verb" (the practice of strict monotheism to the One God) has existed from the time of prophet Adam, through to Noah, Abraham, Isaac, ishmael, etc etc Moses, jesus until the last prophet Muhammad. They were all prophets sent by Allah to guide people of their time. With the passage of time, these earlier messages (Torah and Injil) became lost and corrupted, hence the need for a Final Testament with is uncorrupted. This Final Testament is called the Quran and the divine way of life is called Islam.
With the Quran, the message was for ALL mankind, black, yellow, brown and white. Now 1.6 Billion population are Muslims and islam is the fastest growing religion in the world,
Ty: Your faith in things is commendable, but believe me when I say your religion is a corruption of the truth that came from imposters of angels and likely of God as well, since I know there are false-christs and false-holy-spirit spirits misleading the church. I have much personal experience with these things, so may you go to good teachers and resources and leave Islam.
Read A Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. The scholars in it tell plainly how the Christian scriptures are consistent and valid.
Christianity is actually God’s religion to save all of mankind. Numbers also don’t mean that a religion or sect is THE divine one. There are many large sects and churches of Christianity that give false teachings. Buddhism and Hinduism also have very large numbers.
I’m not going to debate religions or spiritual teaching on this page, as I am no stranger to the process. It will go in endless circles. You will have to come out of lies and false teachings before you can see the actual truth. You may contact me personally, as I said, if you have more questions about what I say and teach, but this page is for discussion of Ron Wyatt’s Red Sea Crossing work. God bless you in truth and wisdom, through Christ Jesus. Amen.
Commenter: I can understand why you feel that way. i blame the Sunday priests who have programmed you to feel that way since small.
But for many thousands of Americans and Europeans who revert to islam annually, and that includes many learned Christian priests and rabbis, they studied Islam with an open heart and mind and came to the conclusion that islam is the Only true religion and others have been corrupted.
No Biblical scholar on this earth will claim that the Bible was written by Jesus himself. They all agree that the Bible was written many many years after the departure of Jesus.
1. Another Christian scholar, Kenneth Cragg, the Anglican Bishop of Jerusalem, says:
“...Not so the New Testament...There is condensation and editing; there is choice reproduction and witness. The Gospels have come through the mind of the church behind the authors. They represent experience and history...."
2. After listing many examples of contradictory statements in the Bible, Dr. Frederic Kenyon says:
“Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies [of the ancient manuscripts from which the Bible has been collected]. No one can say that these additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference”....
I hope you will throw all misconceptions about islam and do proper research on islam with the sincere hope of finding the truth. Only then God/Allah/Ella, will enlighten you.
That was my premise, please study the story of Moses as described in the Quran, you will surely find much useful information and guidance therein.
Ty: Commenter, I don’t believe you took my comments seriously or looked at further information at 3rdCompassDOTorg. I said I would not debate religion on this page, and I would ask that you contact me personally from now on in matters concerning Islam.
I don’t know about your claims that many Christians and Jews have converted to Islam, but I was not brought up on any formal religion as I grew up. Still, I was open to the possibility of God. That is a good thing, because if I totally rejected the truth of God, I would have been cursed with a spiritual blindness that atheists get for that sin.
Instead, God brought me to learn much more completely about the truth of things in Christ and Christianity. He even gave me physical evidences of my predestiny. Read my background page for details about that: http://3rdcompass.org/go?PREDESTINED
If you read it, you will see plainly that God did predestine my path as a minister before I was born, so I would have greater discernment to teach, as I said in my first response to you.
I will try to put things very plainly, so that you may see your errors in logic. The Old Testament speaks of things in the history of the Jews that occurred hundreds of years before Jesus and there have been archaeological finds that confirm Old Testament text, like the King Cyrus cylinder that affirms his order to return the Jews to their homeland so they could rebuild the temple in Jerusalem. That was recorded in the Old Testament books of 2 Chronicles and Ezra, and the Cyrus cylinder is dated to the middle of the 6th century BC, which correlates the timing that things should have occurred as written in the Old Testament.
Also realize, the Jews had been living by the laws set forth in the Old Testament scriptures for centuries before Jesus came in 1 AD. And if you watched Ron Wyatt’s video on this page, you would have seen his archaeological finds that confirm other Old Testament texts.
The scholars I mentioned from the book, A Case For Christ, give much good explanation of the validity of scripture, for example, I quote Dr. Bruce Metzger’s numbers on ancient manuscripts in this article: “Errors of Truth – Can I trust the Bible? Can I trust church doctrine?” http://3rdcompass.org/go?TRUST-BIBLE
There are tens of thousands of ancient manuscripts that have been compared and all of the ones Dr. Metzger mentioned in the book were dated centuries before Islam was founded, and some were dated very close to or in the times when the New Testament apostles would have been alive.
And as I said before, the contents of those tens of thousands of manuscripts agree with each other to a high degree. Some scholars say the New Testament survives in a form that is 99.5% pure.
However, my main point is that Christian scripture far predates Muslim scripture. And I also said before, your Quran is a product of imposter spirits that misconstrue, mislead, and give false teachings.
You note contradiction in the Bible. I am well aware of contradictions in the Bible. There are many reasons for them. One reason is that translation and interpretation errors come from translating the original manuscripts into modern languages. And that can produce the skewed “choice reproduction” of scripture that Kenneth Cragg mentioned.
Another reason for Biblical contradiction is that God put in seemingly contradictory information on purpose. A Case For Christ gives an example that is resolved if you have more information.
Still other contradictory information can come from the different perspectives of the Biblical authors. Things are not as straight forward as most people think. The statement made by Dr. Frederic Kenyon you gave doesn’t give enough information to change what I know of the scriptures.
As I said, I spend over a decade going over spiritual guidance and teachings and that includes studying the Bible. It is the most important resource we have to test and compare with other scriptures and spiritual teaching, but the church often doesn’t understand that their Bibles are not as inerrant as they are often taught.
That teaching blinds people into not thinking further about scripture, that their interpretations can be very wrong, and the reality of scripture is more complicated than most of the church teaches. I’m sure translation of your Quran has similar problems. The only difference is, I do not consider your Quran to be authored or divinely inspired by God, His angels, or servants, which is one reason I have not studied it further.
The Quran’s teachings go against things the Bible teach, which long predate your scripture, so it does little good to fully study what I already know is a corruption of the truth. I have found through personal experience and guidance from God that the Bible is accurate in what it records, but it is sometimes confusing and seems to be contradictory. That is deliberate on God’s part because He tests faith and hides things so that people who consider themselves learned apart from Him will stumble.
If these plain facts and my experience do not persuade you to at least look at Christianity seriously, then I am afraid you are blinded by lies and false teaching that has similarly cursed those who do not believe in God at all. You will have to leave behind the lies and false teaching you accepted to come out into the actual truth. May you heed that and seriously re-evaluate your faith, through Christ Jesus. Amen.
Commenter: i have looked at it and you have thrown many red herrings. Lets deal with one first. Pls provide one clear explicit unambiguous verse where Jesus himself said “i am God”. If you can i am willing to be baptised tonite.
Ty: I gave no “red herrings” to confuse things. I gave simple facts and explanations, but as I said, you must come out of your spiritual blinding and reject the lies and false teaching you have accepted to truly understand. If you do not do that, we will go in circles as you dismiss what I say and try to affirm your beliefs.
You are as the Jews were with Jesus, asking multiple times, “Give us a sign,” solid evidence, so that they could know He was the Christ Messiah, but He answered them, “…no sign will be given… but the sign of Jonah the prophet” (Matthew 12:39), and “When it is evening, you say, ‘It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.’ And in the morning, ‘There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.’ Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times? An evil and adulterous generation seeks after a sign; and a sign will not be given it, except the sign of Jonah” (Matthew 16:2-4).
God does not always give straightforward answers or concrete evidence. You ask for “one clear explicit unambiguous verse” to prove Jesus was and is God when He did not even give it to His own People. You must understand in complete context of the scriptures to see the truth and without the proper faith, you will miss it.
The closest thing the Lord gave to what you want is in Matthew 26 where Jesus is on trial after His capture: “The high priest stood up and said to Him, ‘Do You not answer? What is it that these men are testifying against You?’ But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest said to Him, ‘I adjure You by the living God, that You tell us whether You are the Christ, the Son of God.’ Jesus said to him, ‘You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, thereafter you will see the Son of Man [Jesus Himself] sitting at the right hand of power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.’ Then the high priest tore his robes and said, ‘He has blasphemed! What further need do we have of witnesses? Behold, you have now heard the blasphemy; what do you think?’ They answered, ‘He deserves death!’”
They convicted Jesus of the blasphemy of equating Himself to God. And so today, you see the world is in judgment with COVID-19, there is a storm and the sky is red and threatening, but can you discern the signs of the times or that another sign of Jonah is given?
I will not debate Islam with you here as I said, so please contact me privately as I asked before. Thank you and the Lord bless you with the strength and wisdom to be freed of your shackles, through Christ Jesus. Amen.
Commenter: You will never ever proof that Jesus is god. I gave you that challenge instead you gave me more red herrings to deflect the challenge.
If Jesus is a god is a core teaching of Christianity, surely he would be direct in saying that, but none of that message is evident.
Instead when asked what is the first commandment, Jesus said in Mark 12:29..... "The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is ONE. Not one in three or three in one. He worships “The One God”......translated in Arabic....Allah!
Ty: And Jesus also said, “I and the Father are one” (John 10:30). You have been given sufficient proof of the truth and explanations in the things I gave, just as the Jews knew of the miracles Jesus did was already proof to them, yet they continued to ask for more signs and a straight answer.
And if you looked at by background page as I asked, you would have seen even more proof; http://3rdcompass.org/go?PREDESTINED . It plainly shows how God predestined my path into ministry for Him with evidences I couldn’t manipulate myself. That path speaks clearly of a Christian ministry working towards greater details in the truth of God’s kingdom and spiritual things; it was not for Islam, Buddhism, or even any particular sect of Christianity. My calling is for God’s eternal kingdom, which no denomination, Islam, or any other sect can claim. It is the Lord’s, the one and only true God.
If my understanding of Arabic is correct, “Allah” is not truly God’s name but the Arabic word for God, like the English word “god.” It is a title and not a name. If you’re taught Allah is God’s name, then all I can say is what I said before – Your Muslim teachings are corruptions of the truth from imposter spirits, which are not from God, because their teaching does not pass the test for spirits that the Apostle John gave.
John’s scripture far predates Islam by centuries, and since you simply dismiss that and other plain facts and explanations as “red herrings,” I can see you are blinded by your beliefs. You simply will not understand the truth unless you let go of your false beliefs and teachings. It is a spiritual curse you need to willingly come out of.
And since you refuse to contact me privately after a few polite requests, I see you wish to have a public audience to spread your false teachings. It is a sign you are affected by religious spirits, which often urge the spread of false teachings. I am all too familiar with these things and know how they affect people. So I urge you again to leave Islam and to stop trying to convince me of it. Let God show you the truth, through Christ Jesus. Amen.
“The Jews then gathered around [Jesus], and were saying to Him, ‘How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.’ Jesus answered them, ‘I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.’” (John 10:24-30)
Commenter: Let me deal with your misunderstanding one at a time. I prefer our discussion to be public so other Christians can learn and benefit as well.
John 10:30 ..... I and the father are one.
For proper context read John 10:23-30 from verse 23 onwards....
Verse 28 says that “No one can snatch them out of my hand” and verse 29 says “No one can snatch them out of my father’s hand” then verse 30 says that “I and the Father are one”
In context, Jesus is saying that once the person has believed, God and him will both see to it that the person remains in faith. In purpose, they both are one. Hence “I and the Father are one” means they are one in PURPOSE.. not in essence.
This is verse 29, it comes right before verse 30, and in verse 29 Jesus says the Father is greater than ALL, this obviously includes Jesus since he is not the Father. So therefore how Christians try and assume that this verse shows equality between Jesus and the Father is nonsense, just a verse before it Jesus says the Father is greater than everyone!
Lets read further John 17:21....... ”That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us:”
17:22-Jesus said: "And the glory which Thou hast given me, I have given to them (disciples); that they may be one, just as we are one." (John 17:22).
The word “One” used in both the verses in John 10:30 and John 17:21 is the same.
If you consider the Father and Jesus to be "one" meaning "co-equal" in status on the basis of John 10:30, then that person should also be prepared to consider "them" - the disciples of Jesus, to be "co-equal" in status with the Father and Jesus ("just as we are one") in John 17:22.
In John 14:20 Jesus said similar thing to his disciples. If Jesus statement that ‘one’ with God and if that ‘oneness’ makes him God, then his disciples are also included in this oneness. So this verse in no way imply or confirm Jesus or his disciple is God but its is a symbolic statement meaning their oneness in purpose not oneness in essence.
Ty: I’m fully aware of correct context. Your understanding of the Bible does not include its full context. And I am aware of the scriptures saying the disciples should be one with God. That is in spirit as you said, but Jesus is a different case.
Throughout the Old and New Testament God DOES equate Christ, the Son Jesus, with the Father and the Spirit. That is where Christians got the Holy Trinity, so when Jesus said He and the Father are one, He also meant they are the same person as well as united in spirit. Being the same person is more complicated, though, since Christ and the Father are separate as well as the same person, but I will not explain it here. Read my first book, Chapter Five, for a discussion of that: http://3rdcompass.org/go?BOOK-CH1
I told you I would not debate Islam here and this is also not the place to argue teaching. If you’d like to discuss the Red Sea crossing here, then that is fine, but like others who have tried to debate teaching on these pages when I asked them to refrain because they were over zealous to prove their flawed points, I will have to tell you to contact me privately and any further attempts to teach here will be removed.
I said before we will only go in circles, which is why Apostle Paul said arguing doctrine is fruitless in 2 Timothy 2:14. Your false teachings and beliefs prevent you from seeing things correctly and I will not argue every single thing you bring up. I already brought up many truths and evidences for why I am correct and should be trusted, but you dismiss it.
I have tried to kindly give you correction and guidance for what you have wrong a few times, but I won’t continue in circles with you when you have yet to prove anything I said is incorrect. If you would like to see another discussion I had with someone of similar false beliefs as you, look here: http://3rdcompass.org/go?RELIGIOUS-SPIRITS , and may you take heed of all I’ve said. Your following of Islam will not bring you to God’s kingdom in the next life.
[At his point, I blocked this person from the YouTube channel and never heard from him again.]
As you can see, when the conversation began to go in circles it needed to be stopped, as the person simply dismissed information that should make him reevaluate his beliefs. Instead, he simply goes on to try and prove that his false beliefs and teaching are correct. This gives another clear example of why Apostle Paul said arguing doctrine (teaching) was fruitless (2 Timothy 2:14; Titus 3:9-11)
I also need to make the point that not only do Christians debate Muslims, atheists, and other believers with bad approaches, like simply quoting scripture, they do so with their own spiritual blinds and errors of belief and teaching, often going in circles with their debating and giving excessive comment and teaching that falls on deaf ears. This kind of religious zeal is often from religious spirits, which was shown in the conversation with the Orthodox Christian
Too often in the church, the blind are leading the blind. And then, won't both fall into a pit? (Luke 6:39). So before continuing to correct others' beliefs, make certain yours are correct. "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment" (James 3:1), and Jesus said, "Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye" (Matthew 7:3-5).
May you be blessed to see and lead clearly, through HaMashiach Yehoshua - Christ Jesus. Amen.